315 – Feedback and Communication with Dr. Ben Sorensen

John Over the last two decades, I’ve been on an insatiable quest to learn everything I can about leadership. What makes the best leaders so good? After running companies small and large over the last 20 years, today I speak on stages all across the world to audiences who are interested in that same question. My name is John Laurito. I’m your host, and I invite you to join me on this journey as we explore this very topic and what makes the best leader so good. Welcome to tomorrow’s leader. 

John Hey, they’re tomorrow’s leaders. So I saw today’s guests do a keynote presentation for two. I think it was two and a half hours at a conference I was at. Now that’s a long time. Usually keynotes an hour. And that’s tough sometimes too, to have a keynote that’s really engaging. This guy was great. Two and a half hours I learned stuff. He was engaging. So I said, Well, what better than to bring him on tomorrow’s Leader podcast? So Dr. Ben Sorenson runs a consulting firm called Sorenson Consulting and he provides leadership training, sales training, and executive coaching. He has a doctorate or has his doctorate. He’s served in the US Navy. Thank you for your service. And he was sworn in as the vice mayor of Fort Lauderdale in 2018. Kind of cool. So with any further do I think you’re really going to like this? Here is Dr. Ben Sorenson. All right. Welcome to today’s episode of Tomorrow’s Leader, where we dove deep into all things leader related, related to leading yourself and leading others. I’m John Alfredo, your host. As you know, I’m here with Ben Sorenson. Dr. Ben Sorenson. Ben, thanks for joining the show. 

Ben Yeah, you’re welcome, John. Thanks for having me. 

John Yeah, you know, I’m sure I said this in the intro that everybody just heard a minute ago. I saw you back. I guess that was July in Galloway and you did a phenomenal job. I’ve seen tons and tons of keynotes and speakers and whatnot, and you kept everybody engaged, enthralled, and great valuable info. So I’m like, I got to get this guy, my podcast. So that was the impetus for this whole thing. So great job and thanks for joining today. 

Ben Yeah, I appreciate it. Glad. I’m glad I could keep you awake during the keynote and happy to be here and chat more. 

John Yeah, you got it. So, you know, one of the things that you’ve got a lot of leaders that are out there that that are tuning in, that are trying to learn how to become better leaders. One of the topics you talked a lot about, which I thought resonated a ton with me and I know it with other people as well as the whole concept of feedback. You know, I know leaders struggle. People in general struggle with that. They struggle with getting it and they struggle with giving it, or sometimes they just don’t. What’s your perspective on it? I mean, what does that look like to I know it’s a broad question, but was it look like when somebody is really great at feedback? 

Ben Yeah. Yeah, it’s I think, you know, of all the qualities, I think the ability to give and receive and act on feedback is one of the greatest differentiating factors for leaders. Oftentimes, I call it a growth mindset, John, of is that executive, is that leader open to feedback, interested in receiving it and seek it? And in my experience as an executive coach and leadership trainer now for about 20 years, this is one of the core capabilities if you’re going to bet on one leader growing and developing and doing well in the organization. I think this is the top characteristic. And, you know, John, one of the things that comes to my mind is last night. So last night with two little girls, five years old and a start, six now, six and eight. And we were watching Serena Williams at the U.S. Open. Right. You know, has come back and, you know, is all the good for in the tennis world older and has changed coaches and one beat the second-ranked player in the world last night and Serena is an example of someone who seeks feedback who is arguably the greatest tennis player women’s tennis player ever and yet is constantly seeking coaching, improvement, development growth and some of the best in the world. If the Serena Williams of the world are constantly seeking and growing, then I think, you know, all of us can do the same and benefit. 

John Yeah, it’s a great point. So how does somebody do that in a business? I mean, it’s one thing as an athlete to hire a coach, and maybe that’s part of the answer. What are the ways that somebody can do that who might be listening and saying, Yeah, all right. I guess I do need to get that feedback. 

Ben Yeah. Here’s the thing is just look around you. We have a wealth of resources around you. And specifically think about, you know, someone that works at a small business. There are maybe three or four folks that work around you in that small business. And you might think to yourself, am, I don’t have the money or time or interest in hiring an executive coach or something like that. You’ve got amazing coaches all around you. These folks probably know you better or as well as some of your closest personal relationships know you. So ask for it. Say, Hey, you know, Jane, you’re my peer. We’ve worked together for years or Hey, you know, Sally, you’re a director of mine or Hey, Tom, you’re my boss. Would you mind giving me a little bit of feedback I’m trying to grow and develop? 

Ben Would you be willing to share with me just for 15, 20 minutes a little bit about what you think I’m doing well and what you think I could do to improve these folks? If you engage in asking for it, you’d be surprised what you get. Now, it doesn’t mean everything they tell you. You have to act on it and do something with it. But there can be some really great truths that they share with you because they know you so well and you can follow up and use them as a coach and say, Hey, great, I want to work on one or two of those things you just shared with me. Can I follow back with you in a couple of months and just ask you what you’re seeing from me? How am I doing? You can really grow and improve just by the folks around you. 

John Yeah, that’s such a great point. And there are so many times I feel like people have feedback to give and they just, yeah, I’m guilty of it too, you know? I’ll hear somebody lead a meeting or watch somebody lead a meeting. I think it’s a great meeting. Productive. I’ll see them do a keynote or speak and I don’t give the feedback and sometimes it’s positive feedback to give and that just goes, you know, it doesn’t go anywhere other. And then there are other times where I know somebody could do something better. And so unless somebody is really seeking it out, a vast majority of you probably never gets to the person that it really needs to write. 

Ben I think that’s right, John. And I think part of that is because how we feel when we give feedback, you know, part of what we might think to ourselves is, gosh, if I give John this feedback, he might be upset by it, he might disagree with it, he might challenge me on it. So it might not make me feel that good in giving it to him because it might have John feel not that good about getting it. And that’s part of naturally how we all can feel. And what I suggest to folks is if you really care about that person, if you really want to give them an amazing gift, tell them they have spinach in their teeth right here. Tell them they had spinach. Somebody tell them they have soap that threads hanging down metaphorically from in their back pocket or whatever it might be. They will be so appreciative of it. Maybe not at the moment. Maybe it’s going to feel a little awkward, but gosh, you can really help them. So just as in our personal lives and I think about our daughters, six and eight years old. Right, I give them feedback all the time. Hey, clean your room. You didn’t do this. You didn’t do this. Well, here’s an opportunity. Why do I do that with them? Why do what? Is my wife? Give them feedback. Well, because we love them. We want them to grow into wonderful human beings that contribute to the world because we care about them. So we should do for those around us. Yeah. 

John So what about on the other end of it? So part of it is being in a position where you’re you’re open to getting it, you’re listening, you’re taking action on it. And that’s a big part of it too, because there’s nothing worse than asking for feedback. And then you get it and you don’t do anything with it, you don’t change. I’m reminded of a company that did that. They went on a listening tour. They knew there were problems in the organization. They went on an actual listening tour of what they called it across the country, spent all kinds of time, all kinds of money, and they got all kinds of info, really valuable, and then did nothing with it, literally nothing. And I was talking to a leader in that company. He said You know what, honestly, that’s the last straw. I’m out of here. I just so there’s a lot of that, right? So you got to take the action once you get the feedback or at least you know, b, b, if you’re asking for ID be listening with the intent to take feedback with taking action. 

Ben Yeah, that’s right. And I think the first thing you do is you’ve got to thank people, you’ve got to appreciate the folks that are giving you the feedback, whether it’s positive or correct that feedback. Folks are going out on a limb to give you that feedback. So thank them even if you disagree with it. Right. Thanks for sharing that with me. You know, I want to digest that and think about what’s helpful there. So thank them and then yes, what is helpful put into place and then follow back up with them a month later and say, hey, John, you know, thank you for sharing that feedback with I put in a play. Here’s what it’s led to for me, so help them see that they are invested in your success. 

John Yeah. How about the other side of that? How about if you’re giving feedback? Is there a right way and a wrong way to give feedback? 

Ben Yeah. I mean, I’m a big believer in how you deliver feedback has a profound impact on the receptivity of others for it, the learning ability, the pedagogical value. And so a little tool that I’ve developed is called spot feedback. And I know kind of a story that I’ve it has been shared with me is one about Jack Nicholas and kind of his an experience he had that I think really kind of exemplifies as well. I’m happy to share that with you and if you want me to capture that a little bit, so it’s Jack Nicklaus getting ready for the 1986 Masters. And the Masters starts on Thursday and ends on Sunday. And he teed off on Thursday and started playing and just played poorly, wasn’t hitting the ball well, and he played so poorly on Thursday it looked like he might miss the cut on Friday night, which would have been a real kind of earth-shattering moment in the golf world. And so tough day Thursday. 

Ben So he went back to his hotel and he got a phone call and he answered the phone. And it was his high school golf coach. And Jack’s high school golf coach said, Hey, Jack, I was out there on the wings today watching you and Jack. Your right thumb is on the left side of the club shaft. As a result, you’re rotating too quickly through the swing and it’s affecting your accuracy. Move your right thumb to the right side of the club shaft and you’re going to have a little bit of a slower rotation and greater accuracy. So end of the phone call next days. Friday, Jack goes out to the course. What does he do? Moves the thumb left to right. It matters. It helps him. Actually, it does improve his accuracy. He recovers enough to make the cut cup Friday night, Saturday goes out, moves the thumb again, and makes a charge of the leaderboard. Sunday leader falters. 

Ben Jack wins the 1986 Masters, one of the great comebacks in golf history. So that to me exemplifies what I call spot feedback, which is first the first kind of letter and the acronym spot is specific. So specific time when you observe the behavior and the specific behavior. So you see what Jack’s coach did there is he said, hey, you know today on the links, tell people when you saw them do what they’re doing and the specific behavior where’s the metaphorical thumb right then he is the possible impact of that. So what’s the impact of having your thumb where it was? Well, you heard what Jack’s coach said. He said, you know, rotation and accuracy then, oh, with the opportunity improved and what impact will that have? So, you know, hey, if you move your thumb to the right, that’s the opportunity you’re going to have slower rotation, greater accuracy. And then T is the last letter of the acronym. It was timely, very important that we give feedback in a timely fashion. As it happens, a lot of times leaders in organizations, they’ll wait until their monthly review or quarterly power note. Give that feedback as you get it. 

John That’s such a great point. I love that. First of all, I love that story and that was an incredible masters victory. So it is even more meaningful. And that’s you know, that’s a really that’s a cool story because it’s not I don’t think it’s widely known. I had not heard that. And, you know, that’s such a powerful example of specific feedback. There’s nothing worse than somebody giving you feedback and being like, yeah, you know, you just I felt like you kind of missed the mark on that. And it just, you know, the presentation just wasn’t really that impactful. It’s like, well, you know, that doesn’t give me anything that doesn’t tell me anything. And when it’s that specific, you know what to do as a result of it. Is there a way? You know, I’ve seen and heard leaders or individuals give feedback where it’s kind of they’re softening the scores with positive feedback, then the negative, then the positive. It’s kind of like good, bad, good. What’s your thought on that? 

Ben Yeah. So a couple of thoughts. One, I am not a fan of buffering the negative with some kind of sandwich positive on the beginning and positive on the end. It diminishes the meaning of all of the feedback when you do that. So what I believe is, look, if you’re regularly giving feedback, you should just be comfortable giving that team member positive feedback, given specific spot feedback that spouts positive specific about what they did and specifically what the impact of that positive behavior was. Leave it at that. If you have corrective feedback, give them the correct feedback and you don’t need to kind of add a positive at the end, just give them the correct feedback if you’re using spot feedback, and then if you are giving someone both positive and corrective feedback at the same time because hey, you know, Ben was giving a presentation, there’s some things you liked about it, some things you think you can improve. 

Ben That’s fine because it was in one event and I would say leave with the negative, leave with the corrected. What if you lead with the positive and the person you’re giving feedback to has a sense that you’re also going to give some corrective feedback? They start diminishing in their mind positively because they’re waiting for the other shoe to drop. They’re thinking to themselves, Okay, what’s he going to tell me about what I did wrong? Because I know it’s coming. So actually the positive doesn’t land as well. So flip it around, and start with the corrective. And then just as in your presentation, a couple of pieces about how I think you can make it even more effective. Here’s some spot feedback around two components to make it more effective. And then I want to share with you what I think you did really well, specifically that way you’re ripping off the Band-Aid. I’m hearing that corrective. I know I’m getting that out of the way and getting opportunities to improve. And then I can just bask in the glow of the positive knowing that I’m not going to have to get back and rejigger what you’re going to give me to correct. 

John I love that. That’s so valuable. I speak to a lot of people I’m sure you do, too, that are really frustrated because they’re not getting feedback from their leaders. So part of it, I think, is you’re what you had stated earlier and that’s you’ve got to ask for it, you’ve got to seek it. But they’re in that situation. They’re really kind of rudderless, almost. They don’t know because they’re not given feedback. Sometimes they don’t know how they’re doing. I’ve talked to people who are like, I don’t even know, does the CEO think I’m doing a good job bad? Job, whatnot. How do I define that? So what what is is there a a good kind of recipe for success? For how? What does the cadence or feedback look like? I mean, is it how often how frequently should somebody Be giving feedback to people that are on their team? 

Ben Yeah, when I’m coaching folks, I really encourage them. They should have they should be meeting with their boss once every two weeks. I think once every two weeks you should set a calendar appointment for that and it could be maybe a half hour or 20 minutes once every two weeks. Two weeks gives sufficient time to see how you’re progressing on different projects and ask for that feedback. Hey, John, you know, thanks for getting together today. Just wanted to touch base. Anything, any feedback you can give me about how we’ve been doing? Here are a couple of things I’ve been working on. That cadence is really important. If your boss is not giving you feedback, ask them and say, Hey, one of the things I’m really trying to work on is my growth and personal development, which over the next couple of weeks would you mind just kind of putting a greater magnifying glass on me or I’m happy to share anything you want me to share with you, just to kind of digging deeper so that I can really start growing and developing better and addressing my flat spots more effectively. 

Ben So that’s what I also suggest. And then, you know, think about really asking for the specific feedback. So let’s just say hypothetically, my wife gives me some feedback every once in a while. Let’s say that feedback just hypothetically is, hey, you’re doing enough around the house. Great. There’s a lot of breadth and width of what I could be doing. So, hey, what specifically do you think, and do you want me doing around the house? Do you want me focused on, well, hey, it’s dishes sometimes after dinner, you don’t help clean up as much as I clean up. Fantastic. So ask for the specifics if you’re getting the general and also ask for specifics even if you’re getting positive. Hey, John, great job on that presentation. Hey, Ben, thanks so much. I’m glad you liked it. What specifically did you like about it? What kind of landed with you? Was there a topic or two that land with you or was it the way I’d delivered? Ask for the specifics. That way you can repeat those specifics again. 

John I love that. Yeah, great, great, great points. Is there do you factor in at all different social styles? I mean, there’s obviously everybody’s a little bit different in terms of their personality and social styles. How how much do you pay attention to that and let that factor in? 

Ben Yeah, I think and that’s kind of that that gets you moving from checkers to chess. The kind of more three-dimensional thinking about supporting folks and teaming with is, yeah, we should be adaptive and whatever social style model you all are familiar with as you’re listening, whether it’s Myers-Briggs or Disc or we have one we call customer health, whatever style model you’re familiar with, use that to say, okay, how can I adapt? Adjust a little bit to the person who I’m giving the feedback. One of the greatest bosses I’ve ever worked for was an amazing boss of mine, a pharmaceutical company, and it was just amazing. He was so adaptive to the different team members to figure out, Okay, what motivates each of these team members? Is it a bonus? Is it doing a job well done? 

Ben Is it public recognition? You know, what is it? And then developing the coaching and feedback around that. So if someone was focused on, you know, promotion and looking at opportunities, it was giving feedback and helping couch the feedback in terms of, hey, if you do these things, it’s going to help set you up for your next role as you move up in the organization. If it’s someone on a who is interested in a bonus, then couching it towards that. So that can be helpful. In addition to the style, when you’re thinking about is it someone who’s more analytical and wants a lot of data and information? So in giving them feedback, it is helpful to show them the numbers and show them their performance-based. If it’s someone who’s more kind of expressive, or extrovert, how this matters to the broader strategic vision? So yes, I need more of that too. Feedback can be very helpful. 

John Yeah, that makes, that makes a lot of sense. And I feel like there’s, there’s a lot lost when somebody is assuming everybody’s the same way, you know, and there’s, there’s just everybody’s taking in information the same way. Everybody is motivated by the same thing. Everybody’s dealing with conflict the same way. The last question on feedback and then I want to move on to some other things. How about somebody looking or feeling the need or desire, wanting to give feedback to somebody above them? Is that different and do they approach that a little bit differently than they might? Giving it to somebody a subordinate. 

Ben Absolutely is different and it’s more dangerous. Let’s just be real. It’s more dangerous. It’s giving feedback up. They’ve got power over you. This can go wrong and it can hurt you. So it increases the importance of spot feedback or something like spot feedback in the specificity. The last thing you want to do is get general feedback up to someone, especially if it’s critical feedback, because, one, they’re not going to be able to do much to it to with it. And two, it increases the likelihood that they’re going to take that feedback personally because general feedback. Hey, Ben. Yeah, you haven’t been too responsive to my emails or hey, Ben, you’re I’m really engaged with the team. Those things are really going personally and are tough to fix. So important to be very specific. One of the pieces when you’re giving feedback to lay the foundation is specifically sharing what is going well. So what is it that your bosses do? Doing that is having a positive impact on you and others. 

Ben So that’s important to lay a good foundation. Catch them doing things right. One, because they’re more likely to do it. So you’re going to you know, it’s going to help the work environment. And then two, it also provides a very good opening for you to share that corrective feedback. And I think when you get feedback, it can be helpful to say, hey, I’d love to get some feedback from you around how I’m doing both positively and correctly. And then, look, I’m happy to give you some feedback, if you like, about things. I think you’re doing well and opportunities. So open part the curtain a little bit and see how they respond generally to that. If they’re open and say, Oh yeah, sure, happy to do that, that’d be great. Been a great opening for it. 

John And engagement gods are great, great stuff. Let’s switch gears a little bit. I know you work with tons of different leaders, high achievers, people that are running companies, and people that are moving up the ladder and achieving lots of success. Let’s talk about attitude because that’s one of the things I think people I’ve seen people that have such a great ability to control or influence significantly what’s going on up here. And there’s other people that just tend to, you know, things come into their head and it affects their day. What have you seen? What are what are the keys to, to having the right mental outlook and mindset? What does that look like? How does somebody influence and control it? 

Ben Yeah. So I think the mindset is just vital. And, you know, I have a bias for this. I think it just as we’re talking about coaching jobs, I believe we all need a mental coach and that’s called a therapist or a psychologist. And I just think everyone should have one. I don’t as healthy and wonderful as everyone may be, we can all benefit from it again. Serena Williams. Does she have someone who helps her with her mindset and mission? I guarantee you she does. So I’ve had a therapist now for years and years, and they help me understand what’s going through my head. How do I respond to different situations professionally, personally? What are some of my life experiences that shape how I view things, and how I react to things? It is just a tremendous asset. So I just want to encourage everyone to do that, too. It’s looking at how we respond. 

Ben So one of the key pieces for the mindset is it’s something I created. I call triple-A. So it’s first just being aware of what’s going on internally, how you’re responding to events. And it’s called self-talk is what is going on internally. So one, be aware of it then to assess what you’re saying to yourself. So couple of questions that can be helpful to ask yourself, Hey, is what I’m saying to myself accurately? A lot of times what we’re saying is not accurate and then too is what I’m saying to myself, going to get me in a healthy, emotional state. And then three, the third step, if either of those answers is no, like I’m not being accurate or it’s not going to get me into a healthy, emotional state, then you got to go to the third step, which is adjust. So assess. So sorry, aware, assess, adjust. And you got to adjust your self-talk. If it’s not accurate or not going into healthier states, tweak it a little bit so it is accurate and it will get you into a healthier emotional state. 

John This might be a tough question. How do you do that? How do you adjust your self-talk? If somebody recognizes and they say, I know there’s the wrong stuff, I’m saying to myself. Any tips? 

Ben Yep. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, let’s say you’re giving a presentation and you fumble a little bit. You just you stumble. You aren’t articulate. Maybe you miss a question and you actually say the wrong thing. So how are you feeling after that presentation? Well, probably not that good. And what you’re saying to yourself might be something like, gosh, I really messed that up. I fumbled on the question. I wasn’t articulate. People probably think I’m not knowledgeable about that topic. They probably view me less effectively in my job, as maybe they did previously. So that’s it’s fair to have that immediate reaction. And what I would say is don’t stay there long, because cognitively you’re at a big disadvantage when you enter in this part of the brain called the limbic, which is a whole nother discussion. But part of your brain that’s more critical, anxious, frustrated, you actually can’t think as well. 

Ben You’re not as creative. You don’t bring solutions to tables effectively. So it’s fair to beat yourself up for a couple of seconds, but just don’t stay there. So say to yourself, okay, you know what? I did have some messes there. Now, one of the how to have those mixers was it that I was a little bit nervous? Did I not prepare as much? How could I adjust a little bit next time so that I’m improving? And is there anything I can do to even though I did have some messes in the middle? Could I follow up with some of those folks in the meeting and just call it out and say, Hey, sorry I missed that question. I wanted to get you back with the right information and apologize for that. So what can I do now to improve on what happened? And also realizing that everyone makes mistakes. And so if I showed the humility of accepting the mistake, acknowledging it, and correcting you, what that’s actually going to set me up for success in the future? 

John Yeah, such a great, great point. And I think this is that this is a topic that a lot of people struggle with, you know, and that’s we’ve all had days where we wake up, something happens and it could be something small and it just gets in our head. Maybe it’s a bad call or bad email or whatever, or it’s something totally unrelated to work. And all of a sudden we’ve got this attitude that is infecting the rest of our day. So what I what I’m taking away is and hearing you say is, number one, you really got to be aware and conscious of what’s going on in your head. What are you saying to yourself? How are you feeling? Because that’s going to dictate the decisions you make, how you act, and how you interact with people. Everything I think about that as a leader, you know, you’re interact with people all day. You know, who’s to say somebody reads your body language, your attitude, your interaction in the wrong way? And it’s because of something that happened earlier in the day. They could take that entirely the wrong way. You know, if you and I are interacting, I might think to myself, Jeez, Ben must be angry at me, or it isn’t like me or doesn’t think I’m performing well. And in reality that can be nothing in your mind. You could think the entire opposite, but because your attitude is not changed from a prior engagement. So I think leaders need to understand how important this is. 

Ben Yeah, absolutely. And I think being humble is such an important quality of leaders. I think so. Being humble is a sense of saying, hey, John, you know, I just got to a meeting and I feel like I really didn’t contribute much. And when I was asked that one question, I didn’t even know how to respond. So it’s just a tough day for me to start off with. But, you know, look, I’m going to try to work to kind of turn things around here and, you know, just appreciate your shoulder to cry on here for a minute as I try to, you know, flip the script here a little bit. 

Ben So showing leaders showing the myths that they have and showing the stumble that they have gives everyone else permission to stumble and make mistakes. And the research has been really clear on this, is when organizations have greater forgiveness among team members, greater forgiveness, the creative solutions to customers’ needs increased dramatically. Creativity is directly related to forgiveness. The more leaders show forgiveness, the more team members say to themselves, You know what? Maybe I can try that new initiative. Maybe we can invest in that new product line and see what happens there. Because you know what? I know if I mess up that, you know, John’s a forgiving person and then I’ll have another chance. 

John I love that. That’s so, so true. And there’s a great example of a lot of companies that have that culture. And because of it, you know, the three M’s are a great example of one that comes to mind where they have so many different inventions that come from mistakes that people made. But people feel so comfortable talking about their mistakes. They’re almost rewarded for talking about their mistakes because your mistake maybe somebody else’s secret formula for something they’re trying to create. So, yeah, it’s so, so, so great. Well, Ben, this has been fantastic. I know we’re out of time, but lots that you have to offer and what you do and sharing about leadership and about the personal development of personal achievement. If people want to learn more and they want to learn more about you and what you do, what’s the best place for them to go and how do they do that? 

Ben Thanks, John. Go to my website, Bensorensonconsulting.com. Follow me on Twitter. @BenSorenson, is my handle. 

John Excellent. Awesome. Well, appreciate you joining. I know I’m going to see you in another month or so, so I’m looking forward to that and looking forward to hearing more great stuff from you, but I appreciate you joining and sharing your wisdom with the audience. 

Ben Thanks so much, John. Appreciate it. 

John You got it. And then it’s all for joining today on today’s episode of Tomorrow’s Leader. We’ve been here with Dr. Ben Sorenson. We’ll have all the links down below of his information and where you can find him. Be sure to check them out as always. Like share, subscribe, and go down below. Give a five-star review and we’ll see you next time. Thanks. 

John Thanks for joining us on today’s episode of Tomorrow’s Leader. For suggestions or inquiries about having me at your next event or personal coaching, reach me at John@johnlaurito.com. Thanks, lead on!